Great piece. The songs all resonate as protest songs. I was familiar with all except the Seeger and Rosselson, though I know other work by both musicians. I only mention my familiarity as that will presumably have a bearing on how effective I find the songs, what comes across clearly, what may need explaining, etc.
Which brings me to my first question or provocation. If a protest song needs explaining, is it an effective protest song? I don't think that's a simple question to answer. I'm not for a moment saying that songs shouldn't have their context and 'backstory' (much as I dislike that term) brought to new listeners (I hope my own writing shows that I feel it's always spending time on such things), but that first question does bring another as follow-up: what do we want (or expect) protest songs to do? If we want them to be almost immediately graspable, then that question about explanation and context becomes relevant. If, on the other hand, we see them as another 'first draft of history' (like journalism) or as an emotive vehicle for telling stories that need to be told and that we can trust listeners to put time into to follow their curiosity, that's a different matter (sorry for the convoluted sentence; I hope it makes sense).
I offer those questions because they are my ways of approaching that topicality/timelessness question. I agree with you that it's not as simple as the claim (which I have also made at times) that a song dense with topical detail will date badly; that doesn't have to be the case, as you've convincingly argued. But, at the same time, if I was to approach a collection like Smithsonian Folkways' The Best of Broadside 1962-1988 (https://folkways.si.edu/the-best-of-broadside-1962-1988-anthems-of-the-american-underground-from-the-pages-of-broadside-magazine/folk/music/album/smithsonian) for the first time, how many of the songs would speak to me without the extensive liner notes that accompany the collection? (I use this example because it's one I used to use with students when I offered a class on 'Protest' as part of an American Popular Music course I ran.
I think there's always also the interesting question of aesthetics in any political art (if we're classing protest songs as political art - are we?), which I think about with some of the songs you've chosen and also when I read your discussion with Ellen. The video you linked to with Paul Brady talking about how he found that song is a good example as he is keen to point out the structural changes he made to bring out the melodic line (and I note too that many commenters on the famous live clip also comment on the beauty of the melody and vocal flourishes). Wyatt's 'Shipbuilding' is a beautiful piece of music, which (and I say this as a huge RW fan) can't always be said for his more political work - by which I mean not 'Shipbuilding' but the albums of what he called 'non-misuseable music': that idea of use again. I wrote an article about that aspect of Wyatt's work, by the way, which I can link you to if it's of interest.
Okay, this comment's getting long. I do find protest songs fascinating and, as I say, the things that they bring to the fore: clarity of message, aesthetics, music/lyrics, use/purpose. Thanks for reminding me of this.
I think one of the challenging things, when you care about music and want to share it, is that it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that songs are self-explanatory. They aren't (or, at least, are not _entirely_ self-explanatory).
Even for the most compelling and popular piece of music a listener still has to make some effort to understand what's happening -- what are the choices being made in terms of songwriting and performance and what does that communicate -- and decide if they care about the piece and are willing to invest in it emotionally.
Much of the time that process happens through immersion. We hear enough things, and hear they are related to each other to develop an interpretive framework. I can say that for every single one of those songs I heard the song first, became emotionally invested in it, and only later looked up the backstory. I didn't need the context to appreciate the song.
However, having some context can definitely provide a leg-up to appreciating the song. If somebody doesn't have a pre-existing framework for that style or artist or genre (or historical references), reading the introductory notes can make it easier for them to engage with it.
Similarly, I think someone could spend a bunch of time listening to that Smithsonian box set without ever reading the liner notes and develop a fairly good sense of how the songs relate to each other.
To use a different example, I learned a lot of the political history of the 70s and 80s by reading Doonesbury collections when I was young. I didn't recognize all of the references, but the comic taught me a lot and helped me learn the history.
However, in a class situation, it makes a lot of sense to provide the liner notes. Both to speed up the process so you aren't asking the students to spend months listening to the box set and to allow them to engage academically with the historical context for the music.
As I said to Ellen, I'm really happy with how it worked out that we ended up choosing such different songs for the category of "protest music." I would be really interested to hear from readers -- including you -- how they respond to that difference and what they would pick up on from each of our lists.
Without doing any planning, I think this set of two different lists offers an interesting starting point from which to see what conclusions we can draw.
Finally, I do think it's remarkable that you'd already heard 8 of my selections. I knew that we have a fair amount of overlap in our musical reference points (and, I say with no hesitation at all, you have a broader set of musical references) but mine was a fairly idiosyncratic list which included a number of songs that are not particularly famous which happen to have been important to me.
Thanks for the detailed response to my comment. I'm largely in agreement with you, though I think what you are describing here is a curious listener, which you, I and many other music writers on this platform are. One of the things that has repeatedly surprised (and sometimes disappointed) me over the years of writing about, talking about and teaching music in its historical and social context is how unusual that curious listening (or reading, viewing, etc.) is. There are many people who don't have an interest in doing that extra work and, while that's absolutely fine (people have other interests and curiosities), it does make me question the effectiveness of things like protest songs.
Ultimately, I suppose, it's to do with where people are willing to invest their energies. To take the focus off of protest songs per se, much of what I said about context and backstory can be applied to fans of artists who don't go anywhere near what we would conventionally think of as protest. The amount of additional work fans do to be able to provide 'definitive' interpretations of certain artists' work, to prove that this song is about this or that aspect of the singer/writer's biography, is just one other way of how that 'song research' trajectory plays out.
I digress, perhaps. On the overlap of our tastes, well the musicians you mention and the genres they represent were all quite formative for me when I was younger. A lot of the interests I would go on to pursue were influenced by a grounding in British, Irish and North American folk and folk-adjacent music.
On the topic of genre, I do think there are other interesting questions to pose about which genres get associated with protest songs and how that changes over time. You've been quite clear about which areas of music you were drawing your examples from, and so has Ellen in her current series. But does the style of music they are played in threaten to date them as much as the topical references of the lyrics? There is still clearly a place for these genres now but there might also be a susceptibility to get typecast. I'm thinking about how the folk singers of the 1960s get portrayed in films like A Mighty Wind, Inside Llewyn Davis, and even I'm Not There to an extent. I've just posted a comment on Ellen's 'Eve of Destruction' post about covers of that song by The Dickies in 1979 and Public Enemy in 2007 that raise questions about whether protest had moved to punk and later hip hop. I wonder what the ideal genre would be these days?
I think you're completely correct, in the last paragraph to say that the genres Ellen and I are writing about are themselves dated. Certainly someone else could easily make a list of top protest rap songs. When I was preparing for this post, I read this list of protest songs, which makes an interesting attempt to select songs across genres and across eras: https://www.popmatters.com/100-timeless-protest-songs-list
Going beyond the "protest song" label, I'd be really interested is someone made a list of pro-worker or pro-labor songs from the last 15 years. There must be songs that fit that description but I have no idea what they are.
To be personal for a moment; I've mentioned that part of my experience that informs my writing here, is that I grew up around music. In my 20s and 30s I spent a lot of time being curious about music and then reached a point where I had other things competing for my time and didn't have as much attention to listen and mostly stopped listening to music for several years. For me I didn't enjoy listening if I didn't feel like I could bring attention to it.
Substack has helped me begin re-connecting with music in way that I've appreciated and one element of how it has been useful is that it's a space to pay attention to, and think about music, in which I haven't felt an obligation to be searching for new music. I've been pleased to feel like the music I know and I draw on can be of interest to other people and I I make no claims to having universal knowledge.
When writing it's always hard to judge how much information to provide -- what will seem familiar or strange to other people; what does or doesn't benefit from explanation. But I mostly feel comfortable with the fact that I am representing my own body of knowledge and, therefore, my own history and tastes.
I'm not going to respond to this very interesting conversation the two of you are having at this point, other than to save a copy for my files so I can keep ruminating on the issues that you are both raising and address them at the end of my series.
But one thing I would say is that I tend to be attracted to protest songs no matter the genre, probably because I was raised in the sixties and protest music just feels rather normal to me. I've recently gotten into metal and become a fan of Five Finger Death Punch after hearing a really beautiful song of theirs on the radio and thinking 'who is that?!" It happened again with another one of their songs. Not only do they have great melodies and excellent musicianship, but they're also protesting in interesting ways against what's going on. Here are two examples:
I posit that protest is actually implicit in many songs -- anything challenging convention or authorities -- and I think I take quite a broad view on what we mean by protest songs. In fact, I think I'd want to challenge authorities who try to limit that category to a certain type of song, e.g. folk protest music tends to be the default. Is that not perhaps a way to confine and ringfence 'protest' so it appears to be just a small band of troublemakers and not have to acknowledge it when larger swathes of society are not happy and want change?
I think you're right -- for my part at least, I was gravitating towards the clearest examples or definitive protest songs, but there's a lot of music that could be included that would be more casual or light-hearted examples.
The video for "A Little Bit Off" is very well done and, for example, thinking about the covid lockdown reminded me of The Linda Lindas "Racist Sexist Boy" video -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5AhU5Q7vH0 (which is, arguably, a retro throwback to Riot Grrrl punk).
Wow, great piece, Nick. I'm so far behind on keeping up with you (and so many others) thoughtful essays here, but wanted to comment because I found the dialogue you and Richard and Ellen engage in here, well, so engaging. And illuminating. It's like reading the transcript of a favorite podcast. I don't have a ton of insights to share, but did think about, as you and Richard mention later in the thread, that protest music was a big part of the punk movement and definitely hip-hop as well. That what we consider protest music largely aligns with the genres we listen to and appreciate most.
I think that's only natural; unless writing a book or a long essay on the topic, it requires a lot of time and research (and motivation) to delve into a genre that one is not familiar with or perhaps not a big fan of. And even though I grew up in a vibrant punk scene and was a big fan of such bands as Dead Kennedys, The Clash, Minor Threat, Black Flag, etc., I grew up in suburbia, so most of the political situations these bands railed against did not affect me at all. I think it did inform me though, and my own political beliefs as I've aged, regardless of direct experience.
I suppose most of us don't have direct experience in the situations in protest songs. I think that nowadays protest songs (or protesting, perhaps) can open one up to wider empathy (like in my case) or it can be used as a way of aligning with a side that one already feels affinity for. Kind of like the siloing of beliefs going on today. Where we only seek out views that align with our own, and the algorithms in our media forms do the same.
It's essentially the inverse of how things used to be in the 60s, where we had few forms of media information and now we have countless. Though it could be argued that it is still few forms of information, just distributed to us on multiple formats and devices.
I was also thinking of how different protest music from around the world, often in languages I don't understand, affect me. It shows how, at least for me, the power of the protest song is as much (if not more) from the music than the lyrics. Or at least my understanding of the lyrics. Examples elude me right now, but I'm thinking of bands like Tinariwen and other desert blues artists from Mali....The urgency and the pain comes through so intensely in the music itself, and that sinks deeper into me than most words can.
It's a juicy topic, and I appreciate you all for this thoughtful conversation.
Thank you; and I'm glad you read the comments. This was one of the most extended conversations I've had on substack.
I like the podcast comparison; part of what made it interesting is that we had different perspectives and weren't trying to argue about it, but just exploring the topic.
For me the best part of the conversation was becoming really comfortable with the feeling that I didn't need to have an all-encompassing theory. I could just speak to one part of it and see where it went.
Your comment makes me think again about the question of discussing political music when you aren't familiar with the context. For example, there's an album I think is really strong, and would fit into the category of protest music, but I didn't think about including it just because I wouldn't feel like I could speak to either the musical or social context with much knowledge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dread_Beat_an%27_Blood
What's really fascinating is that when I was in the Sudan I found that the Eritreans living in the Sudan as political refugees loved reggae and idolized Bob Marley. And it continues today with a modern reggae artist challenging the repressive government there -- https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-25056817
Your article shows that the music has also been carried into the African diasporas in places like London, informing new generations and people from different backgrounds. It has also influenced so many western musicians, e.g. Paul McCartney when he went to Nigeria and met Fela.
Thanks for that very thoughtful comment, Steve, and for adding to the conversation. I know that Nick will come back with some very insightful observations, and Richard is actually a proper expert and has taught this topic in university, so I'll only chip in to offer some examples of rock and roll protest music involving other cultures that have occurred to me and might help us define and understand protest songs further:
Their song "God Allow Me (Please) to Play Music" will send shivers up and down your spine and also shows how amazing they are, to the point metal bands in the west are huge fans -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPVo_QyS0Hw
Paul Simon's Graceland was controversial but it was an anti-apartheid statement that the South African musicians who played on it stood behind and supported. The excellent documentary on him, In Restless Dreams, has extensive coverage of his work with them in the making of the album, and his thinking behind doing it.
Many protest songs around the world are now done in English, as these are, because they are looking for support from the west in their battles against oppressive policies -- possible now that English is an international language and social media makes it possible to reach international audiences. Interesting times!
Thank you. I just replied to Steve and I would say to you as well that one thing I really appreciated about the conversation was that the more we went back and forth the more comfortable I felt not trying to speak to the entire spectrum of protest music.
Not that I wanted to restrict the conversation but, just, it was good to feel like having other people to share the topic with meant that I could just talk about what I knew and feel like the broader picture would be reflected in the whole exchange.
Another international example would be Fela Kuti -- I know enough to think of him as a musical and cultural giant (see, for example, https://www.abbeyroad.com/news/the-genius-of-fela-kuti-by-abbey-roads-cameron-colbeck-2813 ) and also a complicated figure. I would probably feel uncomfortable writing about him, because of my limited knowledge, but certainly worth mentioning.
That is a great comment, and deserves a longer response. But I will start by just saying thank you for listening; I'm glad that they resonated with you, and I included a link to your Robert Wyatt post in footnote 5.
Thanks for that link to my RW Substack, though I was talking about a different piece, a non-Substack essay written for an academic book on singer-songwriters in Europe where I discuss Wyatt’s political songwriting.
Thanks for engaging with me around protest songs and pointing readers to my posts so far, Nick.
As we've discovered, your list and mine are completely different and non-overlapping, which in itself is very interesting and raises questions about defining and populating this as a category. Are there sub-categories and you and I are just rustling around in different ones?
In that regard, what struck me is your saying that you really pay attention to lyrics and storytelling, whereas I have to be moved by the music. In fact, I may not even read the lyrics to a song or realize exactly what the artist is singing until years later, just having an overall understanding of what the song is about and the emotional impetus it's aiming to deliver to listeners.
The other difference I see between our lists is that I definitely inhabit the rock 'n' roll genre and folk music has never been my 'thing' so much (although I love "Alice's Restaurant" for the humor in the storytelling, however it's not a song I would listen to over and over), whereas folk (and related storytelling categories) seems to be an important genre for you. And folk is definitely where most of the protest songs over time seem to be situated, whereas protest in rock 'n' roll seems to surge with mass movements and then abate (like the anti-war movement in the 60s and early 70s when young men were being forced to go to war). As I said in a previous comment, I think rock tends to be anti-authoritarian in general but that's often in a taken-for-granted way and not topical.
I'm sure dissertations and books have been written on this, but it's much more fun for us to come up with our lists, because who doesn't like to listen to the music itself and curate and share the songs you love?!
Thank you; that is a helpful comment. I think you're correct to zero in on the question of what it means that our lists our non-overlapping.
I do think that being lyrics-focused or music-focused is probably the single biggest factor. It also makes me think about some aspects of my own taste, which I'm mulling over.
But, my next question is to be curious what you make of some of the songs that I've selected. You were moved by "Ira Hayes" so the lyrics did successfully communicate. I agree that "Alice's Restaurant" isn't a song to listen to often but I also think it's a masterpiece (and you probably wouldn't listen to "Eve Of Destruction" over and over again either).
In my selections I definitely picked songs which might be "too much" either too forceful, to earnest, too wordy, too argumentative, etc . . .
Based on what you've said I think the songs that might be the easiest place to start are the last two "Shipbuilding" and "Duffy's Cut" I don't think you need to focus on the lyrics to appreciate "Shipbuilding" and Christy Moore is exceptionally good at singing to communicate the meaning of the lyrics.
But I'm also very curious to know, as you read my descriptions, which of those tempt you most? Which sound interesting to you from the capsule summary (and, obviously, you don't have to listen to all of them -- there are a lot).
I did listen to all of them, or at least snippets of them, as I was reading through your post, and I have to be perfectly honest that most of them have a musical style that is not really my own personal cup of tea in terms of listening pleasure or preference.
The only one that grabbed me musically was "Shipbuilding" (as you suspected!), and I already know "Alice's Restaurant" from a boyfriend who loved it and introduced me to it (so there are memories attached), and you had introduced me to "Ira Hayes" already. My musical journey probably explains why, being someone who over the years has moved from favoring pop, soft rock, and disco to becoming addicted to harder rock. Which means that I can listen to more traditional protest songs and folk music from an intellectual standpoint and really appreciate where they're coming from and even agree with the sentiments, but they tend not to emotionally grab and move me.
I actually feel a sense of relief when I listen to rock music, like I've come home again. (I'm not even a big fan of pop anymore and don't listen to it.) It seems that, at least right now, for some reason I can't fathom, I'm drawn to the rhythms, melodies, arrangements and whatever of harder rock. Who can explain it?!
So the protest songs I'm profiling are mostly (but not completely) going to fall in the rock 'n' roll camp, which you'll see as we go along. But I can absolutely appreciate your list of protest songs and why they are esteemed examples (by you and others) in the protest song category. They are clearly well-crafted songs, and even in some cases masterpieces. This is a category that appears to cut across musical genres, which may be why your list and mine are have turned out so different.
I appreciate that and it makes me really glad that it worked out the way that it did. I think it is interesting that we each did our own lists and took it in such different directions, and hopefully that will be interesting to readers.
I didn't (and don't) want to frame it as a "debate" but it would be fun to hear how other people react to engaging with the two different lists.
That's a great way of putting it (of course some of these straddle that line. "Think Again" and "Lisa Kalvelage" are both very much anchored to their era and, I'd argue, "Lisa Kalvelage" is one of the greatest pieces of writing in song)
NickS and Ellen from Endwell, now you're making me work, and putting on my musician's hat, which so far as I can tell, one hasn't chimed in yet. Waltzing Matilda is itself a protest song and the unofficial national anthem of Australia (can't believe no one's mentioned that) and every American schoolchild once new that song; however, none remember the lyrics beyond the title line since Aussies use a different form of English. Made a study of it, perform it live and have recited unaccompanied before Australians. It goes deep. And people love that song still. Regarding what makes a good protest song: like attracts like and musicians gather and talk and are opinionated, but we all agree about some things..."the best stuff comes when we just don't give a damn anymore".
First thing that came to mind wasn't political protest but personal protest: "You're Breakin' My Heart" by Harry Nilsson. I'll repost this with a better political/social justice song that I'm sure you already know, too.
I considered trying to offer a definition of "protest songs" and couldn't come up with anything simple. Depending on your point of view you could easily argue for or against including any number of songs (of my list both "Alice's Restaurant" and "Duffy's Cut" are somewhat borderline -- they're not pure examples of protest songs).
I appreciate the Dylan. I am not actually that familiar with his work. He's someone who's talents I admire but am rarely drawn to his music. But his singing is really good in that recording.
I am curious which of the songs I posted grab your attention -- either ones you already knew or if you listen to any that are new to you.
I think you might really appreciate the video in footnote 4. It's an interesting look into the context for Paul Brady's hit.
Great piece. The songs all resonate as protest songs. I was familiar with all except the Seeger and Rosselson, though I know other work by both musicians. I only mention my familiarity as that will presumably have a bearing on how effective I find the songs, what comes across clearly, what may need explaining, etc.
Which brings me to my first question or provocation. If a protest song needs explaining, is it an effective protest song? I don't think that's a simple question to answer. I'm not for a moment saying that songs shouldn't have their context and 'backstory' (much as I dislike that term) brought to new listeners (I hope my own writing shows that I feel it's always spending time on such things), but that first question does bring another as follow-up: what do we want (or expect) protest songs to do? If we want them to be almost immediately graspable, then that question about explanation and context becomes relevant. If, on the other hand, we see them as another 'first draft of history' (like journalism) or as an emotive vehicle for telling stories that need to be told and that we can trust listeners to put time into to follow their curiosity, that's a different matter (sorry for the convoluted sentence; I hope it makes sense).
I offer those questions because they are my ways of approaching that topicality/timelessness question. I agree with you that it's not as simple as the claim (which I have also made at times) that a song dense with topical detail will date badly; that doesn't have to be the case, as you've convincingly argued. But, at the same time, if I was to approach a collection like Smithsonian Folkways' The Best of Broadside 1962-1988 (https://folkways.si.edu/the-best-of-broadside-1962-1988-anthems-of-the-american-underground-from-the-pages-of-broadside-magazine/folk/music/album/smithsonian) for the first time, how many of the songs would speak to me without the extensive liner notes that accompany the collection? (I use this example because it's one I used to use with students when I offered a class on 'Protest' as part of an American Popular Music course I ran.
I think there's always also the interesting question of aesthetics in any political art (if we're classing protest songs as political art - are we?), which I think about with some of the songs you've chosen and also when I read your discussion with Ellen. The video you linked to with Paul Brady talking about how he found that song is a good example as he is keen to point out the structural changes he made to bring out the melodic line (and I note too that many commenters on the famous live clip also comment on the beauty of the melody and vocal flourishes). Wyatt's 'Shipbuilding' is a beautiful piece of music, which (and I say this as a huge RW fan) can't always be said for his more political work - by which I mean not 'Shipbuilding' but the albums of what he called 'non-misuseable music': that idea of use again. I wrote an article about that aspect of Wyatt's work, by the way, which I can link you to if it's of interest.
Okay, this comment's getting long. I do find protest songs fascinating and, as I say, the things that they bring to the fore: clarity of message, aesthetics, music/lyrics, use/purpose. Thanks for reminding me of this.
Responding to the substance of this comment . . .
I think one of the challenging things, when you care about music and want to share it, is that it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that songs are self-explanatory. They aren't (or, at least, are not _entirely_ self-explanatory).
Even for the most compelling and popular piece of music a listener still has to make some effort to understand what's happening -- what are the choices being made in terms of songwriting and performance and what does that communicate -- and decide if they care about the piece and are willing to invest in it emotionally.
Much of the time that process happens through immersion. We hear enough things, and hear they are related to each other to develop an interpretive framework. I can say that for every single one of those songs I heard the song first, became emotionally invested in it, and only later looked up the backstory. I didn't need the context to appreciate the song.
However, having some context can definitely provide a leg-up to appreciating the song. If somebody doesn't have a pre-existing framework for that style or artist or genre (or historical references), reading the introductory notes can make it easier for them to engage with it.
Similarly, I think someone could spend a bunch of time listening to that Smithsonian box set without ever reading the liner notes and develop a fairly good sense of how the songs relate to each other.
To use a different example, I learned a lot of the political history of the 70s and 80s by reading Doonesbury collections when I was young. I didn't recognize all of the references, but the comic taught me a lot and helped me learn the history.
However, in a class situation, it makes a lot of sense to provide the liner notes. Both to speed up the process so you aren't asking the students to spend months listening to the box set and to allow them to engage academically with the historical context for the music.
As I said to Ellen, I'm really happy with how it worked out that we ended up choosing such different songs for the category of "protest music." I would be really interested to hear from readers -- including you -- how they respond to that difference and what they would pick up on from each of our lists.
Without doing any planning, I think this set of two different lists offers an interesting starting point from which to see what conclusions we can draw.
Finally, I do think it's remarkable that you'd already heard 8 of my selections. I knew that we have a fair amount of overlap in our musical reference points (and, I say with no hesitation at all, you have a broader set of musical references) but mine was a fairly idiosyncratic list which included a number of songs that are not particularly famous which happen to have been important to me.
Thanks for the detailed response to my comment. I'm largely in agreement with you, though I think what you are describing here is a curious listener, which you, I and many other music writers on this platform are. One of the things that has repeatedly surprised (and sometimes disappointed) me over the years of writing about, talking about and teaching music in its historical and social context is how unusual that curious listening (or reading, viewing, etc.) is. There are many people who don't have an interest in doing that extra work and, while that's absolutely fine (people have other interests and curiosities), it does make me question the effectiveness of things like protest songs.
Ultimately, I suppose, it's to do with where people are willing to invest their energies. To take the focus off of protest songs per se, much of what I said about context and backstory can be applied to fans of artists who don't go anywhere near what we would conventionally think of as protest. The amount of additional work fans do to be able to provide 'definitive' interpretations of certain artists' work, to prove that this song is about this or that aspect of the singer/writer's biography, is just one other way of how that 'song research' trajectory plays out.
I digress, perhaps. On the overlap of our tastes, well the musicians you mention and the genres they represent were all quite formative for me when I was younger. A lot of the interests I would go on to pursue were influenced by a grounding in British, Irish and North American folk and folk-adjacent music.
On the topic of genre, I do think there are other interesting questions to pose about which genres get associated with protest songs and how that changes over time. You've been quite clear about which areas of music you were drawing your examples from, and so has Ellen in her current series. But does the style of music they are played in threaten to date them as much as the topical references of the lyrics? There is still clearly a place for these genres now but there might also be a susceptibility to get typecast. I'm thinking about how the folk singers of the 1960s get portrayed in films like A Mighty Wind, Inside Llewyn Davis, and even I'm Not There to an extent. I've just posted a comment on Ellen's 'Eve of Destruction' post about covers of that song by The Dickies in 1979 and Public Enemy in 2007 that raise questions about whether protest had moved to punk and later hip hop. I wonder what the ideal genre would be these days?
I think you're completely correct, in the last paragraph to say that the genres Ellen and I are writing about are themselves dated. Certainly someone else could easily make a list of top protest rap songs. When I was preparing for this post, I read this list of protest songs, which makes an interesting attempt to select songs across genres and across eras: https://www.popmatters.com/100-timeless-protest-songs-list
Going beyond the "protest song" label, I'd be really interested is someone made a list of pro-worker or pro-labor songs from the last 15 years. There must be songs that fit that description but I have no idea what they are.
To be personal for a moment; I've mentioned that part of my experience that informs my writing here, is that I grew up around music. In my 20s and 30s I spent a lot of time being curious about music and then reached a point where I had other things competing for my time and didn't have as much attention to listen and mostly stopped listening to music for several years. For me I didn't enjoy listening if I didn't feel like I could bring attention to it.
Substack has helped me begin re-connecting with music in way that I've appreciated and one element of how it has been useful is that it's a space to pay attention to, and think about music, in which I haven't felt an obligation to be searching for new music. I've been pleased to feel like the music I know and I draw on can be of interest to other people and I I make no claims to having universal knowledge.
When writing it's always hard to judge how much information to provide -- what will seem familiar or strange to other people; what does or doesn't benefit from explanation. But I mostly feel comfortable with the fact that I am representing my own body of knowledge and, therefore, my own history and tastes.
I'm not going to respond to this very interesting conversation the two of you are having at this point, other than to save a copy for my files so I can keep ruminating on the issues that you are both raising and address them at the end of my series.
But one thing I would say is that I tend to be attracted to protest songs no matter the genre, probably because I was raised in the sixties and protest music just feels rather normal to me. I've recently gotten into metal and become a fan of Five Finger Death Punch after hearing a really beautiful song of theirs on the radio and thinking 'who is that?!" It happened again with another one of their songs. Not only do they have great melodies and excellent musicianship, but they're also protesting in interesting ways against what's going on. Here are two examples:
"Wash It All Away" - the guitar solo is amazing -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9VFg44H2z8
Their very humorous Covid (lockdown?) protest song and video -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve3fcInpKj0
I posit that protest is actually implicit in many songs -- anything challenging convention or authorities -- and I think I take quite a broad view on what we mean by protest songs. In fact, I think I'd want to challenge authorities who try to limit that category to a certain type of song, e.g. folk protest music tends to be the default. Is that not perhaps a way to confine and ringfence 'protest' so it appears to be just a small band of troublemakers and not have to acknowledge it when larger swathes of society are not happy and want change?
I think you're right -- for my part at least, I was gravitating towards the clearest examples or definitive protest songs, but there's a lot of music that could be included that would be more casual or light-hearted examples.
The video for "A Little Bit Off" is very well done and, for example, thinking about the covid lockdown reminded me of The Linda Lindas "Racist Sexist Boy" video -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5AhU5Q7vH0 (which is, arguably, a retro throwback to Riot Grrrl punk).
That's a great example, and how wonderful to see teen girls forming their own bands!
Looking at wikipedia — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Linda_Lindas
That performance was in May 2021 at which time the drummer (the youngest member) was 10! She would turn 11 in August!
Wow, great piece, Nick. I'm so far behind on keeping up with you (and so many others) thoughtful essays here, but wanted to comment because I found the dialogue you and Richard and Ellen engage in here, well, so engaging. And illuminating. It's like reading the transcript of a favorite podcast. I don't have a ton of insights to share, but did think about, as you and Richard mention later in the thread, that protest music was a big part of the punk movement and definitely hip-hop as well. That what we consider protest music largely aligns with the genres we listen to and appreciate most.
I think that's only natural; unless writing a book or a long essay on the topic, it requires a lot of time and research (and motivation) to delve into a genre that one is not familiar with or perhaps not a big fan of. And even though I grew up in a vibrant punk scene and was a big fan of such bands as Dead Kennedys, The Clash, Minor Threat, Black Flag, etc., I grew up in suburbia, so most of the political situations these bands railed against did not affect me at all. I think it did inform me though, and my own political beliefs as I've aged, regardless of direct experience.
I suppose most of us don't have direct experience in the situations in protest songs. I think that nowadays protest songs (or protesting, perhaps) can open one up to wider empathy (like in my case) or it can be used as a way of aligning with a side that one already feels affinity for. Kind of like the siloing of beliefs going on today. Where we only seek out views that align with our own, and the algorithms in our media forms do the same.
It's essentially the inverse of how things used to be in the 60s, where we had few forms of media information and now we have countless. Though it could be argued that it is still few forms of information, just distributed to us on multiple formats and devices.
I was also thinking of how different protest music from around the world, often in languages I don't understand, affect me. It shows how, at least for me, the power of the protest song is as much (if not more) from the music than the lyrics. Or at least my understanding of the lyrics. Examples elude me right now, but I'm thinking of bands like Tinariwen and other desert blues artists from Mali....The urgency and the pain comes through so intensely in the music itself, and that sinks deeper into me than most words can.
It's a juicy topic, and I appreciate you all for this thoughtful conversation.
Thank you; and I'm glad you read the comments. This was one of the most extended conversations I've had on substack.
I like the podcast comparison; part of what made it interesting is that we had different perspectives and weren't trying to argue about it, but just exploring the topic.
For me the best part of the conversation was becoming really comfortable with the feeling that I didn't need to have an all-encompassing theory. I could just speak to one part of it and see where it went.
Your comment makes me think again about the question of discussing political music when you aren't familiar with the context. For example, there's an album I think is really strong, and would fit into the category of protest music, but I didn't think about including it just because I wouldn't feel like I could speak to either the musical or social context with much knowledge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dread_Beat_an%27_Blood
What's really fascinating is that when I was in the Sudan I found that the Eritreans living in the Sudan as political refugees loved reggae and idolized Bob Marley. And it continues today with a modern reggae artist challenging the repressive government there -- https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-25056817
Your article shows that the music has also been carried into the African diasporas in places like London, informing new generations and people from different backgrounds. It has also influenced so many western musicians, e.g. Paul McCartney when he went to Nigeria and met Fela.
Thanks for that very thoughtful comment, Steve, and for adding to the conversation. I know that Nick will come back with some very insightful observations, and Richard is actually a proper expert and has taught this topic in university, so I'll only chip in to offer some examples of rock and roll protest music involving other cultures that have occurred to me and might help us define and understand protest songs further:
Our friend Charles at Zapato's Jam has written about the amazing Indonesian young female metal band Voice of Baceprot, who have been playing despite death threats from the cultural police -- https://zapatosjam.substack.com/p/international-womens-week-5-now-this-22-03-11?utm_source=publication-search
Their song "God Allow Me (Please) to Play Music" will send shivers up and down your spine and also shows how amazing they are, to the point metal bands in the west are huge fans -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPVo_QyS0Hw
Paul Simon's Graceland was controversial but it was an anti-apartheid statement that the South African musicians who played on it stood behind and supported. The excellent documentary on him, In Restless Dreams, has extensive coverage of his work with them in the making of the album, and his thinking behind doing it.
In the punk rock vein, Pussy Riot in Russia come to mind. Here's their "Police State" video -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaZl12Z5P7g
A few members have done prison time as a result.
Many protest songs around the world are now done in English, as these are, because they are looking for support from the west in their battles against oppressive policies -- possible now that English is an international language and social media makes it possible to reach international audiences. Interesting times!
Thank you. I just replied to Steve and I would say to you as well that one thing I really appreciated about the conversation was that the more we went back and forth the more comfortable I felt not trying to speak to the entire spectrum of protest music.
Not that I wanted to restrict the conversation but, just, it was good to feel like having other people to share the topic with meant that I could just talk about what I knew and feel like the broader picture would be reflected in the whole exchange.
Another international example would be Fela Kuti -- I know enough to think of him as a musical and cultural giant (see, for example, https://www.abbeyroad.com/news/the-genius-of-fela-kuti-by-abbey-roads-cameron-colbeck-2813 ) and also a complicated figure. I would probably feel uncomfortable writing about him, because of my limited knowledge, but certainly worth mentioning.
Ted Gioia just wrote about him -- not a fully portrait but showing how powerful his story is: https://www.honest-broker.com/p/fela-kuti-in-prison
That is a great comment, and deserves a longer response. But I will start by just saying thank you for listening; I'm glad that they resonated with you, and I included a link to your Robert Wyatt post in footnote 5.
Thanks for that link to my RW Substack, though I was talking about a different piece, a non-Substack essay written for an academic book on singer-songwriters in Europe where I discuss Wyatt’s political songwriting.
Oh, interesting. I am curious but I also admit that I really don’t know that much of Wyatt’s music.
Please do provide a link, Richard. Would be interested in reading it within the context of our discussion here.
https://latevoice.com/essays/words-take-the-place-of-meaning/
Thanks for engaging with me around protest songs and pointing readers to my posts so far, Nick.
As we've discovered, your list and mine are completely different and non-overlapping, which in itself is very interesting and raises questions about defining and populating this as a category. Are there sub-categories and you and I are just rustling around in different ones?
In that regard, what struck me is your saying that you really pay attention to lyrics and storytelling, whereas I have to be moved by the music. In fact, I may not even read the lyrics to a song or realize exactly what the artist is singing until years later, just having an overall understanding of what the song is about and the emotional impetus it's aiming to deliver to listeners.
The other difference I see between our lists is that I definitely inhabit the rock 'n' roll genre and folk music has never been my 'thing' so much (although I love "Alice's Restaurant" for the humor in the storytelling, however it's not a song I would listen to over and over), whereas folk (and related storytelling categories) seems to be an important genre for you. And folk is definitely where most of the protest songs over time seem to be situated, whereas protest in rock 'n' roll seems to surge with mass movements and then abate (like the anti-war movement in the 60s and early 70s when young men were being forced to go to war). As I said in a previous comment, I think rock tends to be anti-authoritarian in general but that's often in a taken-for-granted way and not topical.
I'm sure dissertations and books have been written on this, but it's much more fun for us to come up with our lists, because who doesn't like to listen to the music itself and curate and share the songs you love?!
Thank you; that is a helpful comment. I think you're correct to zero in on the question of what it means that our lists our non-overlapping.
I do think that being lyrics-focused or music-focused is probably the single biggest factor. It also makes me think about some aspects of my own taste, which I'm mulling over.
But, my next question is to be curious what you make of some of the songs that I've selected. You were moved by "Ira Hayes" so the lyrics did successfully communicate. I agree that "Alice's Restaurant" isn't a song to listen to often but I also think it's a masterpiece (and you probably wouldn't listen to "Eve Of Destruction" over and over again either).
In my selections I definitely picked songs which might be "too much" either too forceful, to earnest, too wordy, too argumentative, etc . . .
Based on what you've said I think the songs that might be the easiest place to start are the last two "Shipbuilding" and "Duffy's Cut" I don't think you need to focus on the lyrics to appreciate "Shipbuilding" and Christy Moore is exceptionally good at singing to communicate the meaning of the lyrics.
But I'm also very curious to know, as you read my descriptions, which of those tempt you most? Which sound interesting to you from the capsule summary (and, obviously, you don't have to listen to all of them -- there are a lot).
Hi again, Nick, and happy to share my reactions.
I did listen to all of them, or at least snippets of them, as I was reading through your post, and I have to be perfectly honest that most of them have a musical style that is not really my own personal cup of tea in terms of listening pleasure or preference.
The only one that grabbed me musically was "Shipbuilding" (as you suspected!), and I already know "Alice's Restaurant" from a boyfriend who loved it and introduced me to it (so there are memories attached), and you had introduced me to "Ira Hayes" already. My musical journey probably explains why, being someone who over the years has moved from favoring pop, soft rock, and disco to becoming addicted to harder rock. Which means that I can listen to more traditional protest songs and folk music from an intellectual standpoint and really appreciate where they're coming from and even agree with the sentiments, but they tend not to emotionally grab and move me.
I actually feel a sense of relief when I listen to rock music, like I've come home again. (I'm not even a big fan of pop anymore and don't listen to it.) It seems that, at least right now, for some reason I can't fathom, I'm drawn to the rhythms, melodies, arrangements and whatever of harder rock. Who can explain it?!
So the protest songs I'm profiling are mostly (but not completely) going to fall in the rock 'n' roll camp, which you'll see as we go along. But I can absolutely appreciate your list of protest songs and why they are esteemed examples (by you and others) in the protest song category. They are clearly well-crafted songs, and even in some cases masterpieces. This is a category that appears to cut across musical genres, which may be why your list and mine are have turned out so different.
I appreciate that and it makes me really glad that it worked out the way that it did. I think it is interesting that we each did our own lists and took it in such different directions, and hopefully that will be interesting to readers.
I didn't (and don't) want to frame it as a "debate" but it would be fun to hear how other people react to engaging with the two different lists.
Agree!
It’s so interesting how specificity in lyrics can either anchor a song in the period it was written forever or elevate to an absolute timelessness.
That's a great way of putting it (of course some of these straddle that line. "Think Again" and "Lisa Kalvelage" are both very much anchored to their era and, I'd argue, "Lisa Kalvelage" is one of the greatest pieces of writing in song)
NickS and Ellen from Endwell, now you're making me work, and putting on my musician's hat, which so far as I can tell, one hasn't chimed in yet. Waltzing Matilda is itself a protest song and the unofficial national anthem of Australia (can't believe no one's mentioned that) and every American schoolchild once new that song; however, none remember the lyrics beyond the title line since Aussies use a different form of English. Made a study of it, perform it live and have recited unaccompanied before Australians. It goes deep. And people love that song still. Regarding what makes a good protest song: like attracts like and musicians gather and talk and are opinionated, but we all agree about some things..."the best stuff comes when we just don't give a damn anymore".
First thing that came to mind wasn't political protest but personal protest: "You're Breakin' My Heart" by Harry Nilsson. I'll repost this with a better political/social justice song that I'm sure you already know, too.
Also, you might appreciate this post analyzing the narratives of a couple of well-known songs: https://joshuadolezal.substack.com/p/how-folk-ballads-help-you-write-better-stories
Thanks Nick!
I considered trying to offer a definition of "protest songs" and couldn't come up with anything simple. Depending on your point of view you could easily argue for or against including any number of songs (of my list both "Alice's Restaurant" and "Duffy's Cut" are somewhat borderline -- they're not pure examples of protest songs).
I appreciate the Dylan. I am not actually that familiar with his work. He's someone who's talents I admire but am rarely drawn to his music. But his singing is really good in that recording.
I am curious which of the songs I posted grab your attention -- either ones you already knew or if you listen to any that are new to you.
I think you might really appreciate the video in footnote 4. It's an interesting look into the context for Paul Brady's hit.
Definitely "Shipbuilding." It is a masterpiece.