I would offer Billy Joel and Bruce Springsteen as two immensely popular artists whose songs are sometimes chockablock with details. For example, Scenes from an Italian Restaurant and Born to Run. (Also the Beatles, for example Day in the Life.)
I wonder if it's a genre thing, or related to the era the song is from. There has been a definite trend in underestimating the audience and dumbing things down in fiction and music for quite a few decades now, and maybe that is encouraging artists to make things more generic to appeal to a broader audience, especially in an era when the audience is quite fractured. Also wonder if it's more prevalent in pop.
Maybe suggest to Chris Dalla Riva that he do a post about this!
That was the goal; I was hoping it would make people think of other examples and both Bruce Springsteen and Billy Joel are good points of reference.
I remember reading an article about Springsteen years ago which talked about how he started out writing wordier songs and gradually pared back to use fewer details (but still tends to write songs that are grounded in specifics).
I thought about "Because The Night" as a song which is a well-written song that leans towards generic imagery (and realizing that as various people covered it, it moved in the direction of being more universal; Springsteen's original version was more specific).
Also "I'm On Fire" is his most covered song and I think that's is because it's fairly universal.
My favorite Billy Joel song is Allentown, which is very specific but has a universal theme of working class despair. It did quite well, maybe because so many could relate to it, but also because it's just a great song.
Both methods can be both relatable and standoffish. I am often brought into a song more deeply when the details are precise and unique. I don't have to have had the exact same experience, but if the specifics feel true to the story of the song, it helps me imagine it more sensorily. It's as if I can smell the burnt rye toast, hear the cackling of the crows outside the kitchen window, which never closes properly and lets in frigid air day and night.
But -- and this happens more in literature than in song for me -- if the details are odd, or stop me in my tracks trying to understand the connection, then I'm pulled out.
Having a wider view, where the emotional vibe is what matters, lets me add my own details. Often, these details are subconscious. We will fill in the blanks naturally.
This method is far more apt to lead to clichés and stereotypes, though. So it's a fine line. It takes a certain awareness to cast a wide net, to reach across more aisles, as it were, and avoid coming off as generic.
Intriguing topic you've raised here, Nick and Andy!
Good point. They have different ways in which they fail.
Bad writing that tries to be generic can end up with lines that just don't mean anything (part of what kicked off this conversation was my reaction to the chorus in a Lenny Kravitz song that Andres mentioned -- "I've got a pocket full of money / And a pocket full of keys that have no bounds" I think I know how that fits into the song but, by itself, that just doesn't mean much)
By contrast there are a couple of ways to fail trying to write something anchored by precise details (1) they may not be meaningful to the listener, or they may not evoke any broader significance (2) they may be too obscure; the listener might feel like they need to know the backstory to understand what's going on or (3) they may just strike a false note, and feel like they get the details *wrong*.
I think that last is less common but it definitely happens. One example for me is from "panic in Detroit" by David Bowie. One line is, "The only survivor of the National People's Gang." Perhaps I'm overly influenced by Monty Python's "Judean People's Front" sketch but "Gang" feels like the wrong word for that name, and it's always a bit jarring.
Holy crap guys...what a great discussion. Count me in if you decide to do this again. Great examples Nick. It's a raging debate between writers and listeners down through the ages. Nick, check out The Boy From Rye by Gretchen Peters. One of the best examples of extremely specific lyrics - but the sentiment, universal to every teenage girl ever. Contrast with a song like Help by the Beetles - many of their songs were very generic but timeless classics. One of the best examples of blending the two concepts is Ode To Billy Joe by Bobbie Gentry. Insane level of detail but also, so much left unsaid, inspired performance.
Oh, absolutely, this is just scratching the surface. There's so many more examples, and questions to ask but I had fun putting together this list of songs as a way to introduce some ideas and ways of thinking about it.
I would definitely do a follow-up, I'd need to think about how that might be organized, but that's a good idea.
"Ode To Billy Joe" is a great song and, I think, an excellent example for that idea of details like "pegs."
Thinking about where I would go from here. I have one definite idea for a follow-up post and two possible ideas; if you would be interested in a collaboration on any of them let me know and we can figure out a way to create an exchange or conversation..
First, this description combines various types of details, and I would like to do another post distinguishing between (I think); narrative detail (how clearly can you tell what events happened, in what order), detail about the world (how is the song connected to the world), and psychological detail (how well do you understand the characters -- "Ode To Billy Joe" is a good example of a song that's precise in the psychological details).
The possible ideas are:
1) The original post mostly equates specificity with realism. I want to look at more examples of songs that are specific in presenting images that are silly, fantastic, or surreal (the opening Eilen Jewell song does fit that description, but I think could be fun to expand into another post).
2) What does folk music reveal about popularity. For a song to survive over centuries it has to appeal to a broad range of people and you can find examples of folk songs that are specific ("The Golden Vanity") or general ("South Australia")
So much to think about here, starting from the very first sentence after the quotation: if I have a set of preferences regarding songwriting, I'm unaware of it. How did you discover yours? How do you separate that—if you do—from the delivery of the lyrics as part of the song? (Anyone who feels inclined to answer is welcome to do so.)
And of course my thoughts went to my favorite band while pondering Andres' artsy/independent/noncommercial versus mainstream continuum. Perhaps, like so much of Rush's work, Neil Peart's approach to songwriting is so far afield of what's typical in rock and/or prog music that it doesn't slot easily into that construct.
That's really a great question. I don't know that I have an easy answer but two contributing factors are (1) I have a strong tendency to pay attention to lyrics rather than music and (2) I grew up listening to my parents sing and my father does not have a great voice, but I think he's really good at singing in a way that communicates meaning in the song, and in the language.
So I am drawn towards songs (and performances) in which the lyrics mean something and the performance is attentive to that meaning and communicating it (I've mentioned in another comment that John Prine is a great example of someone who has built his reputation by doing that very well).
Thanks for your reply. Like you, I also give the lyrics close attention; with a few exceptions, though, I generally don't don my copy editor's hat and try to work out improvements. That might be because song lyrics are poetry, which I've long considered beyond my ken.
"Smoke On The Water" is an interesting example because, as you say, the lyrics are fairly specific, but most people don't remember any of the lyrics (another similar example would be "Proud Mary" -- I had a previous post on songs about ships; someone suggested "Proud Mary" in comments and it took me a moment to realize that it fit).
What's interesting about Johnathan Richman is that he seems like such a particularist even when he's writing fairly universal lyrics ("Affection') but yes, I'm a fan of his songwriting.
I definitely think of Van Morison as a universalist (but note footnote 3) and I think that's generally true of Nick Lowe -- he clearly has a distinctive writing voice (who else would write, "So It Goes," "Crackin' Up", or "Born Fighter") but does tend to be more general.
How song lyrics will connect to some and not to others has always fascinated me. In your example of Little Deuce Coupe” by the Beach Boys (“She's got a competition clutch with the four on the floor / And she purrs like a kitten 'til the lake pipes roar”) All I can say is that you have never heard the raspy purr of the lake pipes when attached to a correctly set up Merc Flathead with three two's on the top. Most any song that references cars, car parts, or the underbelly of the Hot Rod world gets me every time. I've also been drawn to lyrics that are very specific and are there to make you think. Calling out for change, making you question the status quo. " Hey, Mother Mercy, can your loins bear fruit forever? Is your fecundity a trammel or a treasure?" What a great line from Bad Religion.
So where does genres like Punk, Reggae, or even the more political/social aware songs from like CSN or Neil Young fall in the list?
You're correct, I've never heard the purr of lake pipes attached to a correctly set up Merc Flathead and I appreciate your note that, for someone who has, that detail does anchor the song!
All good questions, as I said in the opening, there's so much to say on the topic I was just riffing rather than trying to cover everything. Punk (and Reggae) are interesting examples because they include both the virtue of speaking directly ("four chords and the truth") and also have a fair amount of mediocre songwriting (as any genre does).
I did think of "Beat On The Brat" as an example of a song that surprises because of the specificity of the image. But there are plenty of more political examples as well; I'll think about interesting examples of songwriting, but I also think about Dino Corvino's comment recommending "Charlottsville" of which he said, "The election has come and gone, so I thought a little bit of a protest song would be cool. Jesse is a dude I know. When this song came out it was absolutely a direct statement. We lack direct statements, so we started here."
Brilliant work, Nick, and thanks for the shout out! I love how a conversation we started a while ago and picked back up recently has inspired you to write such an insighful post. So much food for thought here.
Ellen's comment is very insightful too, as it shows how artists' attitude towards their audience (and the audiences' attitude towards artists) and how those attitudes have changed over time can have a direct impact on the material itself and how we interpret it.
Interestingly and, to add something about Mariah that occurred to me as I was reading your point about specificity, her lyrics have become a lot more specific, personal and full of "Mariahisms" if you will as her career evolved. Compare (extreme example) "Hero" (talking about dreams being hard to follow, searching within your soul and finding the way) [what dreams? searching what, exactly? what way?] with, say, "We Belong Together" ("Bobby Womack's on the radio singing to me 'If you think you're lonely now', wait a minute this is too deep, I gotta change the station"). Or more recently, her latest album (particularly the lyrics of both the opening and closing track [respectively, Mi and Here for It All], both so full of personal references.
And the food for thought continues. Thanks so much for such a great and original post!
PS: I love the Tom Waits song you mention here. In fact, I love that entire album. It's my absolute favourite Tom Waits record of all time (especially "Fumblin' with The Blues", which I sang long ago -- unfortunately can't find any footage!).
Thanks; I agree that it provides a lot of food for thought.
I'm really glad I was able to find your comments on the "Boys Sing Whitney Houston" post; coming back to that later it does open up a broader conversation than the original context (and there were so many more songs I thought about including in the original post but cut to keep it from being too sprawling -- among those I thought about including "Saving All My Love" and "So Emotional").
That's my favorite Tom Waits album as well. I had thought about mentioning Tom Waits and John Prine as two artists who notably embrace the spirit of writing from a very specific point of view and, again, too many examples to choose from, but I loved that Tom Waits and wanted to keep it.
Provocative post, Nick!
I would offer Billy Joel and Bruce Springsteen as two immensely popular artists whose songs are sometimes chockablock with details. For example, Scenes from an Italian Restaurant and Born to Run. (Also the Beatles, for example Day in the Life.)
I wonder if it's a genre thing, or related to the era the song is from. There has been a definite trend in underestimating the audience and dumbing things down in fiction and music for quite a few decades now, and maybe that is encouraging artists to make things more generic to appeal to a broader audience, especially in an era when the audience is quite fractured. Also wonder if it's more prevalent in pop.
Maybe suggest to Chris Dalla Riva that he do a post about this!
That was the goal; I was hoping it would make people think of other examples and both Bruce Springsteen and Billy Joel are good points of reference.
I remember reading an article about Springsteen years ago which talked about how he started out writing wordier songs and gradually pared back to use fewer details (but still tends to write songs that are grounded in specifics).
I thought about "Because The Night" as a song which is a well-written song that leans towards generic imagery (and realizing that as various people covered it, it moved in the direction of being more universal; Springsteen's original version was more specific).
Also "I'm On Fire" is his most covered song and I think that's is because it's fairly universal.
I also tried to figure out if it was worth saying something about "We Didn't Start The Fire" and decided that, as Chris Dalla Riva noted, it's just a weird song: https://www.cantgetmuchhigher.com/p/what-are-the-weirdest-lyrics-in-a
My favorite Billy Joel song is Allentown, which is very specific but has a universal theme of working class despair. It did quite well, maybe because so many could relate to it, but also because it's just a great song.
Both methods can be both relatable and standoffish. I am often brought into a song more deeply when the details are precise and unique. I don't have to have had the exact same experience, but if the specifics feel true to the story of the song, it helps me imagine it more sensorily. It's as if I can smell the burnt rye toast, hear the cackling of the crows outside the kitchen window, which never closes properly and lets in frigid air day and night.
But -- and this happens more in literature than in song for me -- if the details are odd, or stop me in my tracks trying to understand the connection, then I'm pulled out.
Having a wider view, where the emotional vibe is what matters, lets me add my own details. Often, these details are subconscious. We will fill in the blanks naturally.
This method is far more apt to lead to clichés and stereotypes, though. So it's a fine line. It takes a certain awareness to cast a wide net, to reach across more aisles, as it were, and avoid coming off as generic.
Intriguing topic you've raised here, Nick and Andy!
Good point. They have different ways in which they fail.
Bad writing that tries to be generic can end up with lines that just don't mean anything (part of what kicked off this conversation was my reaction to the chorus in a Lenny Kravitz song that Andres mentioned -- "I've got a pocket full of money / And a pocket full of keys that have no bounds" I think I know how that fits into the song but, by itself, that just doesn't mean much)
By contrast there are a couple of ways to fail trying to write something anchored by precise details (1) they may not be meaningful to the listener, or they may not evoke any broader significance (2) they may be too obscure; the listener might feel like they need to know the backstory to understand what's going on or (3) they may just strike a false note, and feel like they get the details *wrong*.
I think that last is less common but it definitely happens. One example for me is from "panic in Detroit" by David Bowie. One line is, "The only survivor of the National People's Gang." Perhaps I'm overly influenced by Monty Python's "Judean People's Front" sketch but "Gang" feels like the wrong word for that name, and it's always a bit jarring.
Holy crap guys...what a great discussion. Count me in if you decide to do this again. Great examples Nick. It's a raging debate between writers and listeners down through the ages. Nick, check out The Boy From Rye by Gretchen Peters. One of the best examples of extremely specific lyrics - but the sentiment, universal to every teenage girl ever. Contrast with a song like Help by the Beetles - many of their songs were very generic but timeless classics. One of the best examples of blending the two concepts is Ode To Billy Joe by Bobbie Gentry. Insane level of detail but also, so much left unsaid, inspired performance.
Oh, absolutely, this is just scratching the surface. There's so many more examples, and questions to ask but I had fun putting together this list of songs as a way to introduce some ideas and ways of thinking about it.
I would definitely do a follow-up, I'd need to think about how that might be organized, but that's a good idea.
"Ode To Billy Joe" is a great song and, I think, an excellent example for that idea of details like "pegs."
Thinking about where I would go from here. I have one definite idea for a follow-up post and two possible ideas; if you would be interested in a collaboration on any of them let me know and we can figure out a way to create an exchange or conversation..
First, this description combines various types of details, and I would like to do another post distinguishing between (I think); narrative detail (how clearly can you tell what events happened, in what order), detail about the world (how is the song connected to the world), and psychological detail (how well do you understand the characters -- "Ode To Billy Joe" is a good example of a song that's precise in the psychological details).
The possible ideas are:
1) The original post mostly equates specificity with realism. I want to look at more examples of songs that are specific in presenting images that are silly, fantastic, or surreal (the opening Eilen Jewell song does fit that description, but I think could be fun to expand into another post).
2) What does folk music reveal about popularity. For a song to survive over centuries it has to appeal to a broad range of people and you can find examples of folk songs that are specific ("The Golden Vanity") or general ("South Australia")
Let me know if any of those appeal to you.
I love both of those ideas and would be happy to Collaborate on either or both.
Sounds good; I sent you a message.
So much to think about here, starting from the very first sentence after the quotation: if I have a set of preferences regarding songwriting, I'm unaware of it. How did you discover yours? How do you separate that—if you do—from the delivery of the lyrics as part of the song? (Anyone who feels inclined to answer is welcome to do so.)
And of course my thoughts went to my favorite band while pondering Andres' artsy/independent/noncommercial versus mainstream continuum. Perhaps, like so much of Rush's work, Neil Peart's approach to songwriting is so far afield of what's typical in rock and/or prog music that it doesn't slot easily into that construct.
That's really a great question. I don't know that I have an easy answer but two contributing factors are (1) I have a strong tendency to pay attention to lyrics rather than music and (2) I grew up listening to my parents sing and my father does not have a great voice, but I think he's really good at singing in a way that communicates meaning in the song, and in the language.
So I am drawn towards songs (and performances) in which the lyrics mean something and the performance is attentive to that meaning and communicating it (I've mentioned in another comment that John Prine is a great example of someone who has built his reputation by doing that very well).
Thanks for your reply. Like you, I also give the lyrics close attention; with a few exceptions, though, I generally don't don my copy editor's hat and try to work out improvements. That might be because song lyrics are poetry, which I've long considered beyond my ken.
Very nice discussion. First thoughts upon reading:
1. "Smoke on the Water" By Deep Purple.
2. Jonathan Richman has a number of songs that are earnest and specific. "Twilight in Boston" is another good example.
3. Nick Lowe is a terrific songwriter that I consider more of a universalist. Maybe Van Morrison too?
"Smoke On The Water" is an interesting example because, as you say, the lyrics are fairly specific, but most people don't remember any of the lyrics (another similar example would be "Proud Mary" -- I had a previous post on songs about ships; someone suggested "Proud Mary" in comments and it took me a moment to realize that it fit).
What's interesting about Johnathan Richman is that he seems like such a particularist even when he's writing fairly universal lyrics ("Affection') but yes, I'm a fan of his songwriting.
I definitely think of Van Morison as a universalist (but note footnote 3) and I think that's generally true of Nick Lowe -- he clearly has a distinctive writing voice (who else would write, "So It Goes," "Crackin' Up", or "Born Fighter") but does tend to be more general.
It's impossible for me to comment objectively about "Proud Mary." The right age and the right place; that one is so important to me.
I actually started digging Nick Lowe more in the last fifteen or so years. He keeps writing well-crafted little songs. Thanks.
How song lyrics will connect to some and not to others has always fascinated me. In your example of Little Deuce Coupe” by the Beach Boys (“She's got a competition clutch with the four on the floor / And she purrs like a kitten 'til the lake pipes roar”) All I can say is that you have never heard the raspy purr of the lake pipes when attached to a correctly set up Merc Flathead with three two's on the top. Most any song that references cars, car parts, or the underbelly of the Hot Rod world gets me every time. I've also been drawn to lyrics that are very specific and are there to make you think. Calling out for change, making you question the status quo. " Hey, Mother Mercy, can your loins bear fruit forever? Is your fecundity a trammel or a treasure?" What a great line from Bad Religion.
So where does genres like Punk, Reggae, or even the more political/social aware songs from like CSN or Neil Young fall in the list?
Thank you, that's great.
You're correct, I've never heard the purr of lake pipes attached to a correctly set up Merc Flathead and I appreciate your note that, for someone who has, that detail does anchor the song!
All good questions, as I said in the opening, there's so much to say on the topic I was just riffing rather than trying to cover everything. Punk (and Reggae) are interesting examples because they include both the virtue of speaking directly ("four chords and the truth") and also have a fair amount of mediocre songwriting (as any genre does).
I did think of "Beat On The Brat" as an example of a song that surprises because of the specificity of the image. But there are plenty of more political examples as well; I'll think about interesting examples of songwriting, but I also think about Dino Corvino's comment recommending "Charlottsville" of which he said, "The election has come and gone, so I thought a little bit of a protest song would be cool. Jesse is a dude I know. When this song came out it was absolutely a direct statement. We lack direct statements, so we started here."
https://youtu.be/NG0mrjh98Hk
You might also appreciate my post about protest songs: https://earnestnessisunderrated.substack.com/p/what-makes-a-good-protest-song
Brilliant work, Nick, and thanks for the shout out! I love how a conversation we started a while ago and picked back up recently has inspired you to write such an insighful post. So much food for thought here.
Ellen's comment is very insightful too, as it shows how artists' attitude towards their audience (and the audiences' attitude towards artists) and how those attitudes have changed over time can have a direct impact on the material itself and how we interpret it.
Interestingly and, to add something about Mariah that occurred to me as I was reading your point about specificity, her lyrics have become a lot more specific, personal and full of "Mariahisms" if you will as her career evolved. Compare (extreme example) "Hero" (talking about dreams being hard to follow, searching within your soul and finding the way) [what dreams? searching what, exactly? what way?] with, say, "We Belong Together" ("Bobby Womack's on the radio singing to me 'If you think you're lonely now', wait a minute this is too deep, I gotta change the station"). Or more recently, her latest album (particularly the lyrics of both the opening and closing track [respectively, Mi and Here for It All], both so full of personal references.
And the food for thought continues. Thanks so much for such a great and original post!
PS: I love the Tom Waits song you mention here. In fact, I love that entire album. It's my absolute favourite Tom Waits record of all time (especially "Fumblin' with The Blues", which I sang long ago -- unfortunately can't find any footage!).
Thanks; I agree that it provides a lot of food for thought.
I'm really glad I was able to find your comments on the "Boys Sing Whitney Houston" post; coming back to that later it does open up a broader conversation than the original context (and there were so many more songs I thought about including in the original post but cut to keep it from being too sprawling -- among those I thought about including "Saving All My Love" and "So Emotional").
That's my favorite Tom Waits album as well. I had thought about mentioning Tom Waits and John Prine as two artists who notably embrace the spirit of writing from a very specific point of view and, again, too many examples to choose from, but I loved that Tom Waits and wanted to keep it.
And I am so glad you remembered that conversation at the most opportune time!
So many hit songs have such generic lyrics especially 80s and early 90s pop/R&B.
Such a great Waits album, that one, from start to finish. A masterpiece in every sense of the word.
How will we know what lies behind hit song lyrics? Well, I’m asking you, Nick… ‘cause you know about these things! 🤣👍🏻