I think having low expectations is important. If making money was important to me, my experience with Substack would be markedly different. Admittedly, my enthusiasm for creating new posts/content/newsletters has waned after doing this for two years, but I still am getting enjoyment from it, so I’ll stick with it for now. I can see flipping from being more of a reader than a writer at some point. If I’m not mistaken, you started off more as a reader and less a writer, correct? How did that evolve for you?
I appreciate you asking that; I had thought about including a couple of paragraphs in my post about my path to starting my own substack.
I had indeed just planned to comment on other people's stacks; because that's how I had approached blogs -- happy to be a member of the community of commenters.
Two of the important reasons for creating my own stack were (1) When I said something interesting in a comment it was easy to not be able to find it again, if I wanted to reference it -- and in some cases it would go behind a paywall if the post was paywalled. (2) There just wasn't that much discussion in most comment threads, so if I had an idea that I thought would be interesting to share with 4 or 5 people, it wasn't likely that all 4 or 5 of them would be reading the comments thread on someone else's post. So being able to push it to a post myself was a better way to reach people.
But I would be just as happy if I could feel like leaving comments was a good way to engage in ongoing conversation.
Thanks for Chase liking my comment to remind me that I never replied to this! I remember you mentioning being a reader before you created EIU, and I am imagining the freedom in that, in simply commenting and joining discussions on post you particularly like or that push a button. For me, writing a Stack takes up so much time, and because my time is so limited, I end up not reading and commenting on nearly as much as I'd like. And I'd like for that sense of slipping further and further behind, never being able to catch up, to be a thing of the past. It is what it is, I suppose, but I'd like my attitude around it to be more chill and accepting.
Yes, that's a great point. I think one of the forces that pulls people in separate directions on substack is the combination of (1) incentives to create your own stack and (2) once you have created your own stack there are incentives to focus on what makes it distinctive and to build up your own portfolio.
I don't think that's necessarily bad but, as you say, it means that for many people just idly kicking a topic around (in a comment section or across a couple posts) feels like a distraction from what they *should* be working on.
In my case, creating my stack for no reason other than just having a place to store whatever I'm thinking about has created a motivation to write and think about possible topics -- which, so far, feels positive.
But I definitely want to stay in a position where that feels voluntary rather than a serious commitment, because time is limited.
Appreciated this post. I have a hard time keeping up with all the writers etc. that I would like to and it's a source of anxiety, especially when I want to support people on here that I now consider friends. Notes generates more of this anxiety when different writers and scenes get traction.
The volume of quality work makes personal investment even more difficult, because nobody has the bandwidth to keep up. But the personal investment is what makes it good.
So, I like your theory of having a limited group that you can maintain, and that can evolve slowly.
In a way the users should have the ability to control their experiences, and I think Substack is creating that is some ways.
I like being able to randomly drop in to things based on interest and serendipity. Like here!
I've also been realizing, in my replies to various comments, that I don't want to imply that I've found the perfect balance on substack. I also find myself sometimes feeling like I'm not being engaged enough, and other times being irritated about, "why hasn't this person responded to my comment yet"? Or, "should I have more paid subscriptions?"
It's tricky figuring out how to best navigate quasi-social interactions (or genuinely social -- I fully believe that online friends are real friends) and we muddle through.
I'm good for 15-20 posts a week, all 'stacks included. Any more than that, and I'm not going to be reading. I think I'm paying for 6 right now, and more than one of them post more than once a week. A couple are consciously trying to build communities -- of commenters, and then with Discords on the side.
I'll read a one off if someone links and quotes, and if the rabbit hole looks really inviting, but I'm basically at capacity.
As a commercial proposition for writers, the thing strikes me as not dissimilar to those old pyramid scheme chain letters. Much more quickly than you think, you run out of new people who'll subscribe.
Nearly all the subs I pay for are people more or less doing it for a living, and not for a mega crowd.
I'm getting a bit more than that and, as I said, it's creating a bit of a backlog that I eventually need to resolve.
I'm sure that there are people who are using Substack as part of their attempt to build community, but it doesn't appear to be the default (at least in the areas that I've wandered -- but that might say something about my tastes).
It occurs to me that Substack might be most analogous to Kickstarter -- a valuable tool for people who understand the strengths and weaknesses of the platform, but fairly fragmented and clearly rewards certain personalities and types of salesmanship.
You might enjoy looking into the Anne Helen Petersen phenomenon: Substacks, podcasts, a Discord that was abruptly cancelled. She lives on Lummi Island now, having moved to your neck of the woods from Missoula during the pandemic.
I'm currently enjoying Lyz Lenz' Men Yell at Me, both the 'stack and the Discord she shares with Garrett Bucks of The White Pages. She lives in Iowa, he in Milwaukee; their content is different, but sharing a discord creates an interesting crossover community, one that includes a fair number of people who'd been on Petersen's now defunct Discord.
Chris LaTray, the Montana poet laureate, has a can't miss substack: The Irritable Metis. He lives here, so there's good local color.
I appreciate the recommendations, and it is interesting that AHP has moved so close.
Thinking about this comment forces me to reflect a bit on the ways in which the OP reflects my personal state of mind. As much as I sometimes wish for the excitement of finding a new lively online community, I don't know that I'm actually ready for that at the moment.
Because I've had such strong connections with certain online spaces, as you know, I know that I can't replicate that -- or at least I can't start over and have it feel the same. I think that part of what's been great about the section of MusicStack that I've ended up hanging around is that it feels approachable, and like something that I can participate it, but it also doesn't have the same rhythms or feel like it echoes familiar discussions, and so it is a good place to start slow and figure out, "how do I feel, and how do I come across participating in this space?"
Speaking of which, if you ever wanted to participate in Tune Tag, I think you would do well, and I'd be happy to make the introduction and see if Brad was interested. . .
Obviously, the secret to having a substack comments community is the size of the commenter base. And consistent commenting. And also some intentionality. For example, Lenz' post today is pure community building:
"[W]hat would you do if you weren’t partnered and/or also had reliable, no-strings-attached childcare for all the time you needed, and maybe also didn't need to work for a bit because we're dreaming. Basically, if you had everything you needed to support you to do whatever you wanted, what would you be doing? Where would you go, what would you eat or drink, how big can you dream?"
Yes to all of that -- it can be done, and it benefits from both good fortune, the right circumstances and intentionality.
Part of what I was saying (vaguely) above is that the quoted question sounds like a good topic for discussion, and exactly the sort of thing that I'm talking about and also not, exactly what I want right now -- in a "it's me, not you" sort of way. I feel like reading that discussion I'd be mentally comparing it my head to "how would this discussion be happening in [other community that I'm used to]" and that's not where I'm at right now.
Right. To be in a community, you have to care about the people. As individuals. This isn't a prompt about discussion, or about dreams. It's about the dreamers.
There's a certain underlying commercial aspect: writers who are trying to make a living (like Lenz) are thinking about whether community means subscription renewals, along with well written well thought out content.
I think AHP has been quite successful in developing and monetizing her community -- and she ended up shrinking from the task of maintaining a large Discord community. Anyway, you should go buy some dahlias from her, once her dahlia-selling operation is up and running. You'll enjoy it. And meeting her fellow, who's now writing for the Atlantic.
I'm in the Music League that spun off from AHP's Discord, and it's great fun. I got my daughter into it, and half my local pub trivia team is playing too. Want a link?
The current round is songs from children's movies. Next week it'll be songs about cars or driving. I'm kind of tempted to go with Dickey Betts.
You've mentioned the music league before. It does sound like fun. Sure, send me a link (though participating might require that I finally set up a spotify account?)
I've said this elsewhere, but "paying for 300 Substacks" is a problem that calls for something I'm calling a "Magazine" (TM). In my "Magazine", you get an edited collection of articles by, oh, say, 300 good writers, not all of them in every issue. A reader pays ONE subscription price, and they get all that stuff! These 300 writers get a living wage at best, or maybe they get piecework wages if their articles are selected.
What do you think of my Magazine idea? (irony alert here)
I see endless writers saying "please support my work here!" Well... as you said, there are just too many of them.
I almost made a comparison to magazines in the piece but wasn't sure that it would be interesting. I'd say the advantage of magazines is that they're _much_ cheaper for the reader and often have editors who take their job seriously and thus have a fairly high level of general writing quality.
The disadvantages of magazines are that they have a longer lead time and are less responsive to current events. You don't have the same personal connection with the writers. Perhaps most importantly, there just aren't a large number of choices. Say you want a general interest cultural/literary magazine you're probably going to start by thinking of
The Atlantic
The New Yorker
The New York Review Of Books
The Economist
London Review Of Books
If, for whatever reason, you don't like the style of those particular magazines and don't want any of those five, your choices get a lot more limited. But if you do like the one or more of those magazines then it's absolutely a good way to spend money.
No, you're right. I do wonder if a new-generation "magazine" could be rolled out of the writing talent on Substack. It doesn't need to obey ANY of the rules of old-generation magazines. In fact, Slate actually was (and is) just that. So maybe Slate is a counter-argument to mine?
Good example (and, incidentally, Michael Kinsley who was one of the founders of Slate has often been used as a point of comparison for someone like Ezra Klein or Matthew Yglesias).
I'm actually in this video, in the Q&A. I had the idea for a while of asking EVERY visitor to Google the exact same question. It's not a question they come prepared to answer (of course, once word leaked out, they WOULD come prepared).
I don't know why I stopped. I did it with Strobe Talbott, Bernard-Henri Lévy, and Kinsley. Just imagine asking Lady Ga-Ga that.
I think having low expectations is important. If making money was important to me, my experience with Substack would be markedly different. Admittedly, my enthusiasm for creating new posts/content/newsletters has waned after doing this for two years, but I still am getting enjoyment from it, so I’ll stick with it for now. I can see flipping from being more of a reader than a writer at some point. If I’m not mistaken, you started off more as a reader and less a writer, correct? How did that evolve for you?
I appreciate you asking that; I had thought about including a couple of paragraphs in my post about my path to starting my own substack.
I had indeed just planned to comment on other people's stacks; because that's how I had approached blogs -- happy to be a member of the community of commenters.
Two of the important reasons for creating my own stack were (1) When I said something interesting in a comment it was easy to not be able to find it again, if I wanted to reference it -- and in some cases it would go behind a paywall if the post was paywalled. (2) There just wasn't that much discussion in most comment threads, so if I had an idea that I thought would be interesting to share with 4 or 5 people, it wasn't likely that all 4 or 5 of them would be reading the comments thread on someone else's post. So being able to push it to a post myself was a better way to reach people.
But I would be just as happy if I could feel like leaving comments was a good way to engage in ongoing conversation.
Thanks for Chase liking my comment to remind me that I never replied to this! I remember you mentioning being a reader before you created EIU, and I am imagining the freedom in that, in simply commenting and joining discussions on post you particularly like or that push a button. For me, writing a Stack takes up so much time, and because my time is so limited, I end up not reading and commenting on nearly as much as I'd like. And I'd like for that sense of slipping further and further behind, never being able to catch up, to be a thing of the past. It is what it is, I suppose, but I'd like my attitude around it to be more chill and accepting.
Yes, that's a great point. I think one of the forces that pulls people in separate directions on substack is the combination of (1) incentives to create your own stack and (2) once you have created your own stack there are incentives to focus on what makes it distinctive and to build up your own portfolio.
I don't think that's necessarily bad but, as you say, it means that for many people just idly kicking a topic around (in a comment section or across a couple posts) feels like a distraction from what they *should* be working on.
In my case, creating my stack for no reason other than just having a place to store whatever I'm thinking about has created a motivation to write and think about possible topics -- which, so far, feels positive.
But I definitely want to stay in a position where that feels voluntary rather than a serious commitment, because time is limited.
Appreciated this post. I have a hard time keeping up with all the writers etc. that I would like to and it's a source of anxiety, especially when I want to support people on here that I now consider friends. Notes generates more of this anxiety when different writers and scenes get traction.
The volume of quality work makes personal investment even more difficult, because nobody has the bandwidth to keep up. But the personal investment is what makes it good.
So, I like your theory of having a limited group that you can maintain, and that can evolve slowly.
In a way the users should have the ability to control their experiences, and I think Substack is creating that is some ways.
I like being able to randomly drop in to things based on interest and serendipity. Like here!
I appreciate that comment.
I've also been realizing, in my replies to various comments, that I don't want to imply that I've found the perfect balance on substack. I also find myself sometimes feeling like I'm not being engaged enough, and other times being irritated about, "why hasn't this person responded to my comment yet"? Or, "should I have more paid subscriptions?"
It's tricky figuring out how to best navigate quasi-social interactions (or genuinely social -- I fully believe that online friends are real friends) and we muddle through.
I'm good for 15-20 posts a week, all 'stacks included. Any more than that, and I'm not going to be reading. I think I'm paying for 6 right now, and more than one of them post more than once a week. A couple are consciously trying to build communities -- of commenters, and then with Discords on the side.
I'll read a one off if someone links and quotes, and if the rabbit hole looks really inviting, but I'm basically at capacity.
As a commercial proposition for writers, the thing strikes me as not dissimilar to those old pyramid scheme chain letters. Much more quickly than you think, you run out of new people who'll subscribe.
Nearly all the subs I pay for are people more or less doing it for a living, and not for a mega crowd.
I'm getting a bit more than that and, as I said, it's creating a bit of a backlog that I eventually need to resolve.
I'm sure that there are people who are using Substack as part of their attempt to build community, but it doesn't appear to be the default (at least in the areas that I've wandered -- but that might say something about my tastes).
It occurs to me that Substack might be most analogous to Kickstarter -- a valuable tool for people who understand the strengths and weaknesses of the platform, but fairly fragmented and clearly rewards certain personalities and types of salesmanship.
You might enjoy looking into the Anne Helen Petersen phenomenon: Substacks, podcasts, a Discord that was abruptly cancelled. She lives on Lummi Island now, having moved to your neck of the woods from Missoula during the pandemic.
I'm currently enjoying Lyz Lenz' Men Yell at Me, both the 'stack and the Discord she shares with Garrett Bucks of The White Pages. She lives in Iowa, he in Milwaukee; their content is different, but sharing a discord creates an interesting crossover community, one that includes a fair number of people who'd been on Petersen's now defunct Discord.
Chris LaTray, the Montana poet laureate, has a can't miss substack: The Irritable Metis. He lives here, so there's good local color.
I appreciate the recommendations, and it is interesting that AHP has moved so close.
Thinking about this comment forces me to reflect a bit on the ways in which the OP reflects my personal state of mind. As much as I sometimes wish for the excitement of finding a new lively online community, I don't know that I'm actually ready for that at the moment.
Because I've had such strong connections with certain online spaces, as you know, I know that I can't replicate that -- or at least I can't start over and have it feel the same. I think that part of what's been great about the section of MusicStack that I've ended up hanging around is that it feels approachable, and like something that I can participate it, but it also doesn't have the same rhythms or feel like it echoes familiar discussions, and so it is a good place to start slow and figure out, "how do I feel, and how do I come across participating in this space?"
Speaking of which, if you ever wanted to participate in Tune Tag, I think you would do well, and I'd be happy to make the introduction and see if Brad was interested. . .
Obviously, the secret to having a substack comments community is the size of the commenter base. And consistent commenting. And also some intentionality. For example, Lenz' post today is pure community building:
"[W]hat would you do if you weren’t partnered and/or also had reliable, no-strings-attached childcare for all the time you needed, and maybe also didn't need to work for a bit because we're dreaming. Basically, if you had everything you needed to support you to do whatever you wanted, what would you be doing? Where would you go, what would you eat or drink, how big can you dream?"
Yes to all of that -- it can be done, and it benefits from both good fortune, the right circumstances and intentionality.
Part of what I was saying (vaguely) above is that the quoted question sounds like a good topic for discussion, and exactly the sort of thing that I'm talking about and also not, exactly what I want right now -- in a "it's me, not you" sort of way. I feel like reading that discussion I'd be mentally comparing it my head to "how would this discussion be happening in [other community that I'm used to]" and that's not where I'm at right now.
Right. To be in a community, you have to care about the people. As individuals. This isn't a prompt about discussion, or about dreams. It's about the dreamers.
There's a certain underlying commercial aspect: writers who are trying to make a living (like Lenz) are thinking about whether community means subscription renewals, along with well written well thought out content.
I think AHP has been quite successful in developing and monetizing her community -- and she ended up shrinking from the task of maintaining a large Discord community. Anyway, you should go buy some dahlias from her, once her dahlia-selling operation is up and running. You'll enjoy it. And meeting her fellow, who's now writing for the Atlantic.
I'm in the Music League that spun off from AHP's Discord, and it's great fun. I got my daughter into it, and half my local pub trivia team is playing too. Want a link?
The current round is songs from children's movies. Next week it'll be songs about cars or driving. I'm kind of tempted to go with Dickey Betts.
You've mentioned the music league before. It does sound like fun. Sure, send me a link (though participating might require that I finally set up a spotify account?)
I've said this elsewhere, but "paying for 300 Substacks" is a problem that calls for something I'm calling a "Magazine" (TM). In my "Magazine", you get an edited collection of articles by, oh, say, 300 good writers, not all of them in every issue. A reader pays ONE subscription price, and they get all that stuff! These 300 writers get a living wage at best, or maybe they get piecework wages if their articles are selected.
What do you think of my Magazine idea? (irony alert here)
I see endless writers saying "please support my work here!" Well... as you said, there are just too many of them.
I almost made a comparison to magazines in the piece but wasn't sure that it would be interesting. I'd say the advantage of magazines is that they're _much_ cheaper for the reader and often have editors who take their job seriously and thus have a fairly high level of general writing quality.
The disadvantages of magazines are that they have a longer lead time and are less responsive to current events. You don't have the same personal connection with the writers. Perhaps most importantly, there just aren't a large number of choices. Say you want a general interest cultural/literary magazine you're probably going to start by thinking of
The Atlantic
The New Yorker
The New York Review Of Books
The Economist
London Review Of Books
If, for whatever reason, you don't like the style of those particular magazines and don't want any of those five, your choices get a lot more limited. But if you do like the one or more of those magazines then it's absolutely a good way to spend money.
No, you're right. I do wonder if a new-generation "magazine" could be rolled out of the writing talent on Substack. It doesn't need to obey ANY of the rules of old-generation magazines. In fact, Slate actually was (and is) just that. So maybe Slate is a counter-argument to mine?
Good example (and, incidentally, Michael Kinsley who was one of the founders of Slate has often been used as a point of comparison for someone like Ezra Klein or Matthew Yglesias).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk3UjzhRiKY
I'm actually in this video, in the Q&A. I had the idea for a while of asking EVERY visitor to Google the exact same question. It's not a question they come prepared to answer (of course, once word leaked out, they WOULD come prepared).
I don't know why I stopped. I did it with Strobe Talbott, Bernard-Henri Lévy, and Kinsley. Just imagine asking Lady Ga-Ga that.
Interesting. I'll take a look and see if I spot your question.